From USS Cole Survivor to Navy Master Chief: Leadership, Burnout, and Knowing When Enough Is Enough

What does it cost to be the person everyone depends on — and who's counting that cost for you?

Amaury Ponciano spent 26 years as a U.S. Navy Master Chief, survived the USS Cole bombing at 18, and built a career leading hundreds of sailors through some of the most high-stakes environments imaginable. But the most honest thing he'll tell you isn't about the mission. It's about what he almost lost chasing it.

In this episode we get into the leadership behavior that nearly cost a sailor everything, why "mission first" is only half the phrase, what finally made him choose his family over a higher rank — and what he'd say to anyone stuck in the cycle of sacrificing more to achieve more.

If you've ever felt like the cost of your ambition is quietly compounding interest you didn't agree to pay — this one's for you.

Connect with Amaury + his book:

Anchored in Resilience by Amaury Ponciano — Amazon (print + audiobook) 

🔗 LinkedIn: Amaury-Ponciano

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

At the end of the day, whether we chase in a promotion, whether we chase in a higher level or whatever, there's sacrifices that will be made. Right? You're sacrificing something. So the question that I pose to myself back then and I try to tell people now is is it worth it? Because the one thing that we never give back is time. Not old money is good money. Not old promotions, not good promotions. And moving to another place to get that job is not the right move. You know, getting the bigger house is not necessarily the better move. All these things we just want, we just simply think about, oh, it's greater, so it will make me feel better, or might give me more status. At the end of the day, it's that circle of people that you really need to worry about and how it's affecting them.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

You just heard from Amari Ponciano, a leader and strategist who blends global perspective with mission-driven execution. He's also a retired United States Navy Master Chief Petty Officer and has traveled the world in service to his country, gaining first-hand experience across cultures while leading at the highest levels of operational excellence. Omori holds multiple master's degrees pairing academic depth with real-world leadership in business development and strategic growth. A true hostler. Beyond his professional success, he's a devoted father whose love for his children fuels his purpose and is a passionate advocate for mental health and resilience. Not only is Amory driven, disciplined, and a visionary, he lives at the intersection of service, strength, and heart, which is what makes this conversation with him so engaging. So stick with this one till the end because there are so many great nuggets to gain. This is Hustle Rebels, a podcast for people who know how to grind, but are starting to question the cost. I'm Renee. And here we talk about success, burnout, and nervous system regulation without glorifying exhaustion or sacrificing your health, relationships, or your sense of self. And without pretending ambition is the problem. Let's get into it. Welcome back to Hustle Rebels. Today's conversation is one that sits right at the core of what Hustle Rebels is about. And I am joined with Amory Ponciano, a retired United States Navy Master Chief Petty Officer who's led at some of the highest levels of operational excellence, traveled the world in service, and built a life at the intersection of discipline, leadership, and purpose. But what makes this conversation different is that it's not just about leadership on paper. Amory brings a deeply personal perspective shaped by real experience, including being on board the USS Cole during the bombing and how that moment has shifted the way he sees mental health, resilience, and what actually matters. So we're going to get into leadership, ambition, identity, and the part that most people don't talk about, which is the cost of all of that. Because the question isn't whether you can succeed. We all know that we can. It's whether what you're sacrificing to do it. So why don't you just introduce yourself,

From Immigrant Roots to USS Cole

SPEAKER_00 3:17

tell us where you're coming from, and share a little bit more about you?

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Thank you for having me again. I was born in a Dominican Republic, little island in the Caribbean, come from a very poor background. And thankfully, when I was around 13, almost 14, my mother was able to bring me to the United States and I came to New Jersey. As you probably uh would understand, it was a shot going from Caribbean, nice weather all the time, to a thunderstorm of like 24 inches of snow when I landed. It was my first time seeing snow. I didn't speak any English. So it was very shocking, but I knew that my mom made a lot of sacrifices just to get me here, which then propelled me to try my best in school. Right. Like I knew that she worked in a factory, that she worked standing up for eight hours, and then between taking the train from New Jersey all the way to Queens, it added up to another extra hour each way. So it will be like 12 hours, and then she'll get home, cook, clean, help us out with homework. I saw my mom only having two pairs of jeans, the one she was wearing, and then the ones that she was washing. While me and my brother had everything that we needed, and then even more, right? You don't realize it at the moment, right? But as I gotten older and I look back, like I didn't need a Nintendo and a Sega Genesis. I had all the systems, right? Or she would give me money every week because I will babysit, for lack of other words, my brother, you know, from the time school was over until she got home. That's when I could go out. I did well in school, but it wasn't well enough to where I will get a scholarship or anything like that. So because we didn't have the money, it was either go straight to work or join the military. So then I remember taking the Azbab, which is the test where they get to know like your knowledge and just to see where they will place you for the army. And my mom's husband at the time, he was prior army, so he was kind of sell that. But as life will put it, they wanted me to go to infantry, although I had pretty good scores on my ASBAB because I'm really good at math. My English was not as good because I only had four years in the US, but I was really good at math, so my math was really high. So my overall scores were really high, but they were only talking about infantry. I got upset, I walked out, and it just happened that the way the recruiting office was, you walk out of one door, there's the other branches, Navy, Air Force. So I just went to strip you in. Yeah, I'm just gonna go. So I just went to the Navy and will say, What you got to offer? And he was like, What did you score in your ass bab? I told him, and he was like, Oh, I could offer you a bunch of jobs. And I was like, I want to work with computers, that's what I want to do. So, make the story short, I would join the Navy right out of high school, and my very first ship was the USS Cole. So I reported to the Cole in March of 2000, and we went on deployment in August of 2000. The very first couple of weeks of the deployment were awesome. I got to see places that I never could even dream of. Like my very first port was Barcelona, Spain, and it was beautiful, and we were able to do all the things that we want to do, and the sailors do it mostly because back then we were not even at ward. So it was very liberal how we did things. Like we pull in on a Monday, our curfew was like six o'clock in the morning. So like you could party all morning, just show up, make sure you're alive, and be like, okay, you're here, and then you could go right back out at eight o'clock in the morning if you didn't have to work that day. So yeah, that that's kind of what happened in the next like two or three ports. So Croatia, we hit Malta, and then it was finally time to do work, quote unquote. So we had to head to the Middle East. And our way to the Middle East, we had oil leak. That's like one of our turbines, uh, oil was spilling out, and it got to the point where we had a lot less than what is required to stay out to sea, so we had to pull in to the very first port that we could. And the people above us selected eight in Yemen, and we pulled into Yemen in October of 2000, and a few hours after we were more in Peerside, we had a suicide bombers who got close to the ship, started praying, and then they blew up, and the ship had a hole that I want to say remember the dimensions, but pretty, I want to say it's like 17 feet uh wide. And unfortunately, we lost 17 lives uh sailors, friends of mine. Because one thing I will say when you went to DDG, that's a destroyer, that's the class of ship that I was in. It's about 330 people. And when you then go on deployment, you get to know everybody because you see everybody, right? I might not necessarily know you to the point where I know you know how many kids and how many this, but I at least I know your name, I know where you work, I kind of know your schedule. So I knew everybody. And like I said, 17 passed away, unfortunately, and 39 were injured. And during that entire time, our responsibility then became not letting the ship sink while also taking care of those people that were injured. I'm not gonna board you with all the things that did happen. I would just simply mention a few things. First of all, we didn't have any food because the storage where the food was was destroyed. But thankfully, we had our ship store that was not touch and the storage for the ship store. So our meals were sneaker bars and prank and Pringles and whatever you can find. And we had to rationalize for the like the first 40, 72 hours. We didn't have any portable water, so whatever water we had in the storage, that's what we had to drink, or Gatorade, whatever was in that storage. But we also didn't have any water to use the bathroom or take showers. And then there is the dead bodies and even the smell of that, you know, people that just passed away, unfortunately. We struggled. The weather was in the upper hundreds, the peak hours it would be at like 120 degrees, right? And we were too scared again inside of the ship because we didn't know if it was gonna sink. So it was a struggle, but what kept me going and doing the things that I did, which by the way, I didn't do anything heroic, I just did what I was told, was the fact that I wanted to go back home to my mother. That was my purpose, my why. If you were my boss and you told me that I needed to get water out of a space just with a bucket of water and continue to do a thousand trips to get the water out, if that meant that I was gonna see my mother sooner, I did that. It wasn't necessarily driven by this is my duty, or now that I'm being honest with you, saving the person next to me. It was more about survival. I gotta get home to my mother, so whatever that takes. And I didn't understand that back then, but as I got older, I understood that that was thankfully my purpose, my why. And to me in my life, that's been very important having a purpose, having a why, because it's taken me from a lot of dark places. So, yeah, we left. Uh I left the ship. I was selected to score one of the people that died because he was a really close friend of mine. So I brought him, his body back to his family. And then the Navy did something that really changed my life as a whole, besides the accident itself, is that they forced me to get mental health. Because I will tell you, coming from a Latino background and being a man, that was not a thing back then. We're talking about 2000. So mental health was considered something weak to go seek help. So if the Navy would have not forced me, because they did, they made me go, and then I had to go to follow-ups appointments, or it just couldn't be like one time, and then it's been something that's been part of my life. I have PTSD ever since then, and I'm going to counseling for over 26 years because every time I feel like I'm better, something creeps up. And thankfully, it's not something that makes me want to do something to myself or to others, but it puts me in a shell where I don't want to be around anybody. And it doesn't matter who is around or how happy I am, it kind of puts me there. So it's a constant fight to try to be able to do my day-to-day and enjoy my kids and enjoy if I have a partner and things like that. And then especially once I became a leader in the military where people come into me for answers and for guidance, I had to show this phase of like I'm calm, I'm okay, things are going fine. So I needed to lean a lot into that. I just retired last year after 26 years, and now I live in Vegas because I wanted to be close to my son.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Wow. That is quite the story. I feel like I have so many questions.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

I wanted to talk about the cold because it has such an impact on my life, but I didn't want to really dive in. One, because it could get very graphic, but then two, which I don't mind talking about it. But then two, I just wanted to respect the time that we have as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Yeah, no, I feel like from start to finish, you have covered a lot of topics that are just ingrained in what I love to cover in my own business and practice as well. And I feel like you hit the ground running in your entire life with just seeing your mom hustling and grinding and how that impacted probably the way that you view how you have to sacrifice everything. And it's interesting, coming from a first responder background as well, when you view your parents, whether you're dad or mom, and how they sacrifice for you, and then it's almost like you ingrained that to yourself, and then you then sacrifice for other people. How interesting it is when you as the child then choose a career path that ends up doing that as well. And you don't really inherently know that, you know, it's something that you kind of look at from the outer perspective. I want to get back to something that I was kind of thinking about when you're talking about the bombing and how you thought about it being a survival mechanism. I feel like when you're surrounded by people in that instance, how did it affect the camaraderie versus, you know, if you're just like in a corporate world and you're just going day to day and our nervous systems are so crazy, right? And we're always absorbing things around us when we don't really understand it quite as much. But you kept saying it was your survival technique to just think of your mom, and that's your mission. But you're also absorbing how this traumatic event just happened, but you're also working alongside the people with you. How did that affect you as well in that moment?

SPEAKER_01 14:15

So I will say though, one, we were very well

Trauma, Leadership, and Mental Health

SPEAKER_01 14:18

trained. Although we had a lot of fun in the two months before it happened, one thing that our uh commanding officer did do was he will require to do X amount of training, like on the times that we were out to see. So usually what will happen is we will pull into a port on a Monday, we will go back out on a Friday. That Saturday, it was all drills. Drills about fire, about flooding, about a missile inbound. So a lot of things became muscle memory. So I had that first, and a lot of us had that too. You also get to understand by doing these drills that no matter how well you do something, there's always something I gotta do, and the next person gotta do for your part to even be working. So you could do everything in your part. And this is where, although I was like, I want to get back to my mother, no matter what I did, there was other people that had to do other things for my little part to be the connection. So I would just part of the chain. So to answer your question, yes, I was very selfish on my desire to come back home to my mother, but I understood then that if you didn't do X, then that was not gonna happen. So even if I did everything I could, I will push you in the best way possible. It will be like, hey man, I got you. What do you need? I probably annoy people, you know, because like after I went, I went through a moment of shock because I saw a dead body and it was a friend of mine. But once I snapped from that shock, it was game on. And it wasn't, like I said, nothing heroic, because I'm not gonna sit here and say that save any life. But whatever was needed to do, and I understood that needed to get done, I was grabbing people. Like, hey, we're doing this, or like we gotta do this, or or hey, you need to, you know, we need to guard because we had to man weapons to ensure that nobody attacked us. So if you said, hey man, I'm supposed to do four hours, but I'm tired, like I barely could do three, then I'll be like, Look, I'll do five instead of my four, but you got me tomorrow. But it would just be because I knew that. So we were very tight, and I think we all had purposes, our own purpose, right? But in the conversation, it was simply let's save ourselves because there are people that are married, they got kids, and I didn't have anything like that because I was so young, so I only have my mother. But there were people there with families and wives and kids and her husbands and all these different things, so they all had a reason to come back. We just did not talk about it a lot at that moment, but it was simply disguised into let's get the job done. But in the back of our heads, because I have talked to a lot of people afterwards through the years, it was I gotta get home. You know, there's so-and-so waiting for me. And then I think as much as it impacted us to see the dead bodies and the people injured, that also gave us a sense of urgency of like that could be us, or that wasn't us. So we gotta do something now. Like we owe it to them. A lot of us had that conversation during the time. If you felt like why am I doing an extra hour of watches? Why am I doing an extra hour of picking up water from a space, it will be back to like, well, so and so cannot even do that because he's dead and he was only 18. If he could, he would. If he was here, he would be doing it. So you gotta do it, Amaldi. So there was a lot of those kind of talks as well.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

I feel like you're also describing a lot of great leadership personality traits. Even though you said, you know, if one of your leaders were telling you to do something, you would just do it. But at the end of the day, it sounds like you were also pushing yourself into some type of leadership position, which obviously you ended up going into. So how did that experience change you and propel you into leadership positions?

SPEAKER_01 17:53

First and foremost, it was the role of those that were in the leadership position and seeing them act. I will say I saw people from different pay grades crying and bundle up into a corner because we all react differently to trauma, right? Like there's no shade on them, it's just simply how it was. But in the Navy, we have what we call the chief petty officers, right? And thus those people that are then the ranks from E7 to E9. We kind of the other branches don't do this, but the Navy does. We kind of break away and we are like our own system. And there's this pride of like you listen to the chief. That's our saying. You don't have any questions or you want to see how things get done, look what a chief is doing. And I will say, I never saw any of those chiefs like crying or in distress or anything like that. Although later on I found out when I made chief and I felt like I could ask these questions to them 11 years later, that they did cry, they just did it in a private place amongst themselves. And then when it was time to come to show the rest of the sailors, they show uh a unified front of this is what we need to do. So that was first, right? So I respected a lot of them into like, hey, that person is doing this, and if he's telling me to do this again, then I would do it. Second, it was the sense of you know, I always been a little bit of an alpha. So even in our group, when we went hanging out, I was always the one that would learn the direction so we know where we're going, the one that will stay somewhat sober compared to the others, so we can make sure we get back on time, back to the ship. So I always took that role. So then during that time, it came out again, right? Not to the point of telling people what to do. I like to lead by example. That's always been put in me because my very first leader in the Navy, he embedded that in me. I'm not gonna tell you that you need to go clean the toilets if I'm not willing to clean the toilets, if I haven't done it myself.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

So I always took that as like, okay, I'm seeing these people sitting down here when we need to do X, Y, and Z. Let me just do it. So then after I do it or while I'm doing it, then I could look at you and be like, how come you're not doing X?

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

A lot of those things came naturally, but it also was out of necessity, right? The number one thing was seeing those cheese petty officers like the way they were so calm and collected to tell us what to do, where to go, how to do it. I mean, I'm talking about one of them had a broken leg and he still put all his firefighting stuff and was you couldn't tell he had a broken leg. He refused to not go down and save somebody's from one of the spaces that was getting flooded. And when you see stuff like that, it's hard to be like, well, I'd have everything okay with me. And I'm 20 years younger than this guy. How can I not do my part?

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Which is so interesting because when you think about that, you did make a great example of how they did take their emotions when they were amongst themselves, right? But there is this unspoken expectation that leaders carry everything and they can't break, right? Where do you think that there is a time that that can become dangerous among leaders when they have that mentality?

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Oh, it can in many different things. But one of the things that I actually saw is when you continue to do that, and then what happens is, and I can speak for myself, when that bubble bursts, it's usually when you're not even thinking that will happen. And then if you are in a moment where you are required to have your mind right because we're doing an exercise or we're doing something, you know, people's lives depend on it, that's not the time to break down. But if you never address it, it could be the time. And I'll give you an example, and I could talk about this because this is, you know, now unclassified because it's been 10 years ago. But we were by the coast of Syria and we were shooting missiles towards Syria, but then we were so close that we only had like a five second reaction to a missile our way. Right. So, and the way to do that is we have weapons that will react to that, but you do usually have someone that has to be engaged with the technology. Right? Like there's a button that needs to be hit. There are just all these different things, a radar that needs to be looked at. And there was one guy, he was a little bit senior than me at the time. And he just had all these things bottled up. And I knew because we will talk a little bit on the side, but he would continue to do, but I gotta do this. It was always go back to I still gotta do my job. You know, like it's no point of talking to someone, or it's nothing, you know, I shouldn't even take any kind of medication. Because it was also it was twofold. He was having issues at home and then he was not sleeping well. But then he was required to be working these long hours. So then whenever it was time to rest, he wouldn't be resting. So he was living out of monsters and Red Bull and stuff like that. We had a scare that we thought it was a live missile coming. Thankfully there wasn't. And he was a few seconds late. If it would have been the real thing, we would have been hit. And he got chewed out, and you know, like all these different things. And he still, even after that, did not want to address it. And it took me and others talking to other people, and they literally let him like sleep for like 24 hours. Was like, no, you're not, you're not gonna stand any watch, you're not gonna do anything. So you could kind of do better. So that's just one example. I also seen it for me, because I'll I'll use myself because I I I have failed as well. The way that that comes out in me when I don't treat myself, when I don't take care of my things, is I get angry quickly, right? And I remember a sailor coming to me about something that it was important to that person, but for me at that moment, I had a lot of going on that it wasn't. But as a leader, I learned later on that you have to understand that, you know, if you really want to want that trust of that sailor, whatever is important to that sailor, then it becomes important to you, especially if it affects how he or she does their job. And I was just like, I don't want to hear that right now. Like, I don't got time for that. You know, I kind of like blew it. Not only did I blew it off, I also minimize it. Because to me, what it was was minor. But it doesn't mean it's minor to that person, right? I got a phone call a few days later, and the person didn't hurt themselves, thankfully, but they went to the hospital and put themselves on what we call the fifth floor or whatever. And I always go back to that. Like, did I help with that? In the sense of like, did I push her to feel like she didn't have anybody to talk to? Because then me now, I would have been like, let's stop, let's go see someone, right? Like, she would have talked to me, I would have see how I could help, and then if it was too much, let's like, hey, like let's just go talk to somebody, right? Like, let's see if they could guide you in a better way. Because I'm not no expert. But the fact that I blew her off and it was someone that I know she respected me. She still does now. We have talked about her later on, thankfully, and she has forgiven me. Yeah, I let her down and I let myself down, and I'm just grateful that she didn't do anything to hurt herself, that she was smart and strong enough to just go to and seek the help. But that stayed with me for a long time because I had a lot of stuff in myself, and I just put this person, not only did I put them down as in the sense of in my mind of what it was, but I also said it verbally like, what is the big deal? This is nothing, like just move on, or like you'll be all right. And it's just not that easy.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

One thing that I have loved about how we've connected on LinkedIn is how as a leader, you are just so open to being vulnerable and admitting your mistakes and even just using an example, right? And you're just so open to growth. And I feel like that's such a hard thing for a lot of leaders to wrap their heads around, but it's also one of the best qualities of leaders. And why do you think leaders in this time and age feel like they have to choose between being respected and being human?

SPEAKER_01 25:46

I'm just gonna speak for myself, right? So I don't, you know, I'm not in the head of everybody, but in some of the conversations that we have, especially in the military, I can always focus on that. It's one, the vulnerability is taken as weakness, right? There is also that sense of like, I was brought up this way, which comes from a lot of us that we've been in for a long time, where there was a lot of other less training about hemp sympathy and empathy and about resilience. It was just like tough shit, part of my language, just do it, right? And you know, so we still with that mentality. And then when you come to me with about anything that's about vulnerability, be like, well, I I dealt with that, or you know, I did okay. What is your problem? Why can't you just instead of like simply taking a step back and say that okay, I'll dealt with it, but did I feel okay though when I dealt with it? Right? Was that right that I had to deal with it on my own, or that I was make fun of because I went and talked to a psychiatrist? Even people that knew that I had my situation with the coal, there were still some people that would be either make fun or would be like he just milking it, because there's no way, right? They knew that I saw their body, they knew that I was 18 years old, like all these different things. So that to me is a level of not wanting to give people grace because I didn't get it, which is the worst

'People Always' Leadership

SPEAKER_01 27:12

thing that you could do. And then two, is a lot of times we're more focused on the end goal than the people. In our case it was mission. And we have a thing that says mission first, but what a lot of people forget is that the saying continues and says people always. A lot of people just focus on the mission first, but if you don't have people, the mission doesn't get done. I don't care how much computers we have, how much technology we have, there's still humans that I require to be able to do the mission, right? And my shift to being the best leader that I could be, I would just simply be the best leader that Amauri Ponciano could be, was when I completely understood that last part. People always. And then I added to that was just because my 100% is up here and yours is 100% is down here, doesn't mean that you're not giving me my all. That's all you got. It doesn't make you a bad person because to be honest, Johnny 100% is about mine. So to Johnny, he could be like, You're not doing anything, right? So you have to also understand that we all have limits and capabilities and things that I do very well. Someone might not do it, but they do something else very well that I don't. And when I put those things together, a lot of things started clicking. And I was able to have a lot of more conversations, truly have empathy and sympathy for people, wanting to listen. I could sit here and hear you talk, but am I listening? And then I learned as I talk to sailors about they pay attention when you remember the dog's name, right? And I know that I'm not gonna be able to do that when I used to have 150 people under me. Like it was impossible for me to remember every detail. So I try to just pick one thing or another that I knew that their eyes were to spark. They'll talk about, I don't know, fixing their Corvette, the 1967 Corvette. So the next time I will see them, I'll be like, how's that Corvette going? I might not know their spouse's name, I might not know their dog's name, but I remember that part. And then that will be how other conversations will come and I will be able to provide whatever guidance I could.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

I feel like there's two things that came to mind when you were saying those things, and I'm gonna try to remember the second one and try to say the first one. But the first one is how almost like what we were talking about before we started recording is that people have different perspectives, right? So if someone comes to you with an issue and it's like that person is like, it's totally fucking ridiculous what they're being so upset about. You know, what might upset them is ridiculous to you, but also what might upset you is totally ridiculous to them. I mean, I had this one call where I was not even a part of the call. We were transporting someone that they were just high at a music festival. But while we were transporting that person, there was an 18-month old that was drowning. But because we were being utilized, we had to call someone else out of town to do it. So it extended the time. Anyway, the 18-month-old ended up drowning. But we finally got back, they were doing the crisis intervention team with the people that were involved. And then the chief said to us, because we weren't involved, we had to be the ones to go back with the police and like tell the family that, you know, the 18-month-old wasn't saved. And so it's interesting because looking back, I told myself I shouldn't be affected because I wasn't part of the call. But I ended up being affected because I felt so useless that I wasn't able to be a part of the call. But then I'm never usually affected by the actual, it sounds really terrible, but like the actual dead person. I'm always affected by the families and having to do that. Then I was affected by the family weeping because I had to be the one to tell them the pronunciation of their 18-month-old being dead. So it's interesting how each person is affected in different ways. And then I felt guilty because I was if I were to be like, oh yeah, I feel sad about having to do that, they'd be like, you didn't have to like try to revive an 18-month-old. And I'd be like, Yes, you're right. I should feel guilty about that. I shouldn't feel bad about that, you know? So um it's interesting how we all process things in such a different

Trust Through Connection

SPEAKER_00 31:28

way. Yeah. And having grace for that. And then the second thing I did remember is when you're talking about finding that spark in the people's eyes. I think about I took Jocko Willink's EO Academy. Are you familiar? No, I'm not actually. Are you familiar with Jocko Willink at all?

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Yes, I am, but not the academy part.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

So he has a leadership development thing that he has taken from his own experience in the military and then teaches now to corporate leaders and everything. It's really great. And I feel like he has toned himself down a lot, probably from what he used to be. But he has something called leadership capital, and it's very similar to what you're talking about, where it's like you don't have to be best friends and know everyone that you work for or work around or work over, but just knowing little pieces of the person's life is a little deposit that you're gaining access to that person. So when you do have to either reprimand them or ask something of them, you have a little bit of leadership capital where you're expending. So they don't feel as either expendable or frustrated towards you because you have that little bit of relationship with them. So I feel like that's you don't even know about it and you're already doing it as a great leader.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

It was something that again, I picked from someone else, right? It was just someone else that said something to me. And I was like, How do you remember that? Because I knew he had other people under him. And he didn't have 150 people, but he had about 50 under him. And I was like, How do you remember that? And he was very honest, and he was like, That's all I remember. But when I look at you and I talk to you about it, then you start telling me about other things, and then everything else clicks back. Yeah, and I was like, I like that. And I didn't have the opportunity to put that into play perspective in place until later on. And yeah, I try to find either something that I could remember because I saw that spark, or something that we have in common. So that way it doesn't come fake because it's something that we have in common. I remember another guy that was from the islands, he was from Jamaica. So I will be like, hey man, when's the next time you're gonna do some jerk chicken? Because I love some jerk chicken, right? And he's like, Hey, my wife just did it the other day, and I'll be like, You didn't bring me nothing. And we had a whole conversation about him being selfish because he didn't bring me anything. And we just laughed for minutes, and then he went back to work, and then I remember I came back like the next day and he had jerked chicken. He brought for everybody, but then when I went in and he was like, You you all should think, you know, at the time I was a senior chief, senior chief on Seano, because I only brought in Jacob because he made me feel so bad yesterday, and I but that was like the joke, and like that became the thing, and then I had to bring food as well because now I put him in the spot, and because I'm from the islands, he was like, What do you cook? It's just little things like that, because then when you don't see them at their norm, you could tell when someone is not all there or they make a mistake, then you're able to ask those tough questions and they have that level of trust to tell you because you also care when things were right. So it's not just because it's your responsibility as a leader to ask me why am I bloom? It just you always ask me how am I doing. So it's easier, and even if they fight me, because there's some where I'm like, no, I'm okay. No, no, they're not. So I will put them to my office and I'll be like, okay, you don't have to talk about it. Talk about the jerk chicken or something that we have in common. And then little by little, I'll be like, Well, now that we're here, man, tell me what you are willing to feel comfortable about the situation. See if there's anything that I could help, whether it's with advice, or just simply someone that you could talk to that is not another person if it was the spouse or if it's something that nobody else will understand, kind of thing. I worked about 90% of the time, you know. I'm happy with that.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yeah, and that's really where someone where they gain trust, right? And that's something that I wish that I had encountered in my darkest of times when you just notice those small little shifts in someone's behavior. And instead of noticing them and being like, that person is acting out of character, they're being insubordinate and then piling on top of it. It's more like you got to know them, you're like, that person's acting out of character, something must be wrong, trying to help them figure out whether it's with the work or whether it's in their personal life, you know, having that trust between them. This is a really great sign of a obviously a great leader.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

I'm telling you, whatever level that I'm at I was able to achieve, this was truly people pouring into me. I will say 90% of the things that I use, it was because someone either used it on me or I saw them used it, and then I was like, that is awesome. Like I need to implement that the same way I will see other things that I will be like, no, that's just not what I would like to do. And one of the biggest ones was a the Navy tells us to not riprimate in public, right? Like, if I'm gonna chew your ass or whatever, I should be doing in an office, and I believe in that, but there's also something to be said to say something in front of other people because a lot of us have a lot of pride, right? So, for example, if there's something that I could tell you in front of everybody, and not simply like tell you you're you're a dumbass or or you're stupid for this, but just simply like, hey man, I know what you could provide, and you didn't give me that. And I'm just disappointed. We could talk about it more later, but I didn't expect this to be like this right now, or whatever. I found that because I show interest on other things from that person, they usually took that in a positive way. And even when there was in front of everybody that will come to me then later on, some will say, but I didn't appreciate you telling them in front of everybody, and then my children, right? Like that's the biggest, they're my world, but it's also the biggest learning curve because I have a 24-year-old young lady, and then I got a 12-year-old young man. They look like me, but they're different in how they are, which is suspected, but it's having those conversations, especially when she was a teenager and having to deal with boys and having to deal with telling certain things. I had to take a step back and be like, I'm not in the military right now, I'm talking to my daughter, and I learned with her then help me with my sailors, is I talk to her with perspective and opinions, not necessarily you will do this. I'll be like, hey, if I was you, this is what I did that time, and that's the outcome, or I did this, or I advise you to look into this, and then I'm like, but it's your world, baby girl. I remember her last boyfriend, I wasn't fond of that guy, but it would just simply I said I don't appreciate X, Y, and Z. But if he treats you well, if you're happy, that's what matters to me. I can look over that and be civil with him, and you won't even notice. When I told her, it was like two years after they're been, she was like, I will never guess. And I was like, Yeah, because that's that's your boyfriend. So, like, I don't need to be liking him or dislike him as long as he's treating you right, then I'm okay. I just don't appreciate certain things. One of them was he used to wear the pants showing your underwear and call me old man, but I just I just couldn't live with that. And I remember telling her, and then the next time I saw him, he had his pants up. No, there you go. I respected that, right? Like that I told her, I was like, Did you say something? She was like, Yeah. I said, Look, I'm not telling him that he needs to wear it all the time, but when I'm around, I don't want to see another man's draw. That just that's my simple request. So yeah, even with my children, I they have helped me not only like understand about how to talk to people, but then also the empathy and the sympathy. Because I always try to lead with the sense of like, what about if that was my daughter and had a leader, and that leader is being this way? Would I want my daughter to be talked to that way? Where I want someone to be empathetic to my so these are sons and daughters, right? I'm not here to cuddle them. I wasn't there to cull them. We still had a mission, we still had things to do. But I also understand that they're human beings and they're gonna make mistakes. I mean, I have told my daughter a bunch of things. She still makes a bunch of mistakes, and doesn't mean I'm a bad parent, right? It doesn't mean that she's a bad kid either. So I try to take that when I was at work, right? The Navy is actually made up, I think it's somewhere about 60 to 70 percent, 25 and under.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Wow, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:47

So it's really young men and women.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Because a lot of them just do the one enlistment and then they get out. It's only an amount, a small percentage that go to 20 and retire. So, like, I was dealing with a lot of those. I couldn't help myself but to think a lot of times, like, if it's my daughter, because she was the oldest at the time, I'll be like, how would I want my daughter to be treated? How would I want someone to treat her when she's talking about something that might be minor to me, right? But if it was my daughter, would I want her chief to give her the grace to, I don't know, go take care of that flat tire instead of waiting after work, right? Like just little things like that.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Yeah. Well, it sounds like you've had a lot of growth within your leadership. And what would be some of the things that you had to unlearn in order to have that growth?

SPEAKER_01 40:37

I'm ashamed to say this one, right? But I think I want to be transparent, right? Growing up, I was very homophobic, right? I grew up in a household where it was a bad thing that the style, the culture was in the Dominican Republic. So I come to the military and I had those biases, right? Just not necessarily that they were bad people per se, but I don't need to be around you, leave that kind of stuff alone or whatever. Thankfully, the Navy or the military went from the don't ask, don't tell, and eliminated so you could say that you were homosexual. I remember someone that was a good friend of mine just told me I'm I'm gay. Such stupid to even think of it, but it's just a reality. How I just looked at it, I was like, man, this dude been around me and has done the hard jobs, has been there with me, helped me study, do anything. Not one time he tried to do anything with me or even come at me in any way. He just liked me. He just love men and I love women. And once I understood that, and then later on found out that my brother was gay, and remember him crying to me, telling me when he opened up, saying, Do you really think that I just will do this if it's not something that is inside of me when I know there's so much hate out there? When he put it in that perspective, that you don't choose to be gay, it's just who you are. That gave me something in the sense of like I was able to look at religion, race, sex, or orientation, like all those things, and just simply put it in the bucket that like we're just human and we're just trying to do the best that we can. And you know, whether I'm Catholic and you're Muslim or I'm Muslim and Christian, whatever, at the end of the day, it's about treating people right, it's about caring for people, and our differences is actually what makes us stronger, it's actually what makes us better. Because although I am not a religious person, I used to be Catholic, but once I grew up, I just decided not to be in any kind of religion. That doesn't mean anything. Like, hey, you be Catholic, go to church, do what you gotta do. All good. We'll go to the game afterwards, right? Like that just had nothing to do with me, right? Like who you are at home with, or what you eat, what you drink, what you do, like it has nothing to do with me, unless it does something to do with me. Like, if you drink and drive and don't tell me, and I get on your car, then yes, it has something to do with me. But besides that, we're just people trying to live our lives and have joy, enjoy our families, enjoy the people that we care about, have goals and dreams. And that's what makes us amazing, right? Like that's what makes us great. And I love that about the Navy. The Navy introduced me to different backgrounds, different religions, and I'm so extremely grateful. I will definitely put that as like the number two thing that I'm grateful for for the military. The number one, give me the opportunity to provide for myself and for my children. Because I still to this day, my retirement and then all the benefits that I'm able to pass to my children, that's been amazing. But the second thing, I opened my eyes to just see you as who you are and not put all these barriers and all these but she's this, or she might teach me some things. I might not do that. Same thing. I might not care for that religion. Well, I might even eat that dish. But show me how to do it, right? And maybe I do like it. And if not, then it is what it is. And I think that really helped me to become the best leader that I could be. Not the best leader, but the best version of me as a leader. Because I was able to see people for who they were without putting barriers and without, well, we don't have this in common. Yeah, we don't, but okay. Show me. Tell me something that I could learn from it. So that way maybe I could relate to someone else or speak their way or what they believe.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Love that perspective. And I love that you just have the ability to be

Worth the Sacrifice

SPEAKER_00 44:37

open and honest of how your opinions are able to be changed. And that is not a quality that a lot of people, especially in, you know, 2026, is able to have. And I just have one final thought that I want your perspective on. And it's really for anyone that might be listening that feels stuck in this cycle that they need to achieve more and they need to sacrifice more. And they might be stuck in that mentality that might be closed-minded. But what could be the first thing that they need to hear and be honest about that you could maybe relay a perspective to them for?

SPEAKER_01 45:10

I got to a point in my career where I had to take a step. At the end of the day, whether we chase in a promotion, whether we chase in a higher level or whatever, there's sacrifices that will be made, right? Whether it's time, attention to the people around us, whether it's I'm not gonna take vacations because I gotta be, you're sacrificing something. So the question that I pose to myself back then and I try to tell people now is is it worth it? Because the one thing that we never give back is time. I miss graduation from my daughter. Some of that had to do with COVID. But because of the job and because of COVID, I couldn't fly from Sicily to be in Virginia for her graduation. Although I promised that I will be there. Wasn't. I remember before that, I had a choice to either take orders to Sicily or to Hawaii. This was before COVID, because that was the only two choices they gave me. And I remember that if I would have gone to Hawaii, I probably would have made E9 because I was an EA at the time. I would have made E9 like this because I was gonna go to a high operational. And I said to myself, I'm almost at 20 years, I given it all. Now I'm gonna be a little selfish. And I said, I'm gonna go to Europe because I want to travel in Europe. I'm still gonna do my job. I still went to an operational command, but it was more slower pace. But I said that to myself, and it was the best decision I did in my career. I still ended up making E9 just a few years later, but I loved it. I traveled to like 20 different countries. It's the same command where I had 150 sailors. I didn't even know that I was gonna have that many sailors under me. And I had so many that I helped them achieve so many things because I was able to make them see the best version of themselves or help them. So, to your question, is the sacrifice worth it? Right? If you believe it in your heart that it's worth it in the sense of like, yes, it will give my, let's say it's for this promotion, that amount of money is also gonna help me then get that house that I want for my family or that vacation house that I want for 10 years from now, okay. If you could honestly say you could sit down for a couple of days and say it's worth it, go for it. But if it's taken away for time with doing the things that you love, seeing the people that you care about and love, then I suggest that you take a little bit of time, talk to those folks, see how they feel. They're very supportive for the most part, people that love us for our careers, and they will always say, you do that. But just sit them down, forget about the promotion. We're talking about promotion right now, but forget about that. How would you feel if that means that I'm gonna be gone? And just be honest, be like, hey, I want your honest, not what you think I need to hear. I want to know what you really feel about the fact that I'm always getting here at eight o'clock at night and we hardly even had dinner together, and then it's time to go to bed because I get up early or you get up early or whatever, or that we cannot take vacations because I'm so worried about a phone call or whatever. And you'll be surprised when you are willing to have those conversations, not when you're heated, like, hey, I want to make the decision, but I wanted to be able to do it with all the information. I'm not saying that what you tell me is gonna change my mind one way or another, but I want it as an input. And then you make that decision. It's hard to do, but that will be my advice. Is that not old money is good money, not old promotions like good promotions. And moving to another place to get that job is not the right move. You know, getting the bigger house is not necessarily the better move. All these things we just want, we just simply think about oh, it's greater, so it will make me feel better, or might give me more status. At the end of the day, it's that circle of people that you really need to worry about and how it's affecting them. And that's why I retired 26 instead of 30. Because I was like, I need to be close to my son. I miss so much from my daughter, I'm not doing that with my son. So I could have gone to 30, probably could go all the way to like 32, which is when they're like, hey, you gotta go. But I was like, no, 26 is enough. I achieved everything I wanted and I got the promotion. I got all the way to E9, like I wanted. My pension is gravy, and I got my education, I got all the things. Why should I stay more? For what? Because I would have got a higher promotion and just be in my title that would be higher. Not worth it. The times that I have now where I could take him to school, pick him up from school, I could go for lunch, I could take him on trips, I could plan ahead because the Navy is not telling me that I'm gonna be deployed. Like I literally last year I planned a trip for now in July. I bought everything last year because I know I'm here. I know I'll be able to be there for him and my daughter, and that's priceless.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

I feel like that's a great place to land. Some great perspective shifts. Well, Amori, that is a powerful conversation that we just had, and I appreciate you bringing both strength and honesty, vulnerability into this. And before we wrap up, where can people connect with you, follow your work and your book that you haven't mentioned yet?

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Oh, awesome. Thank you. Yeah, so I have a book called Anchor and Resilience. It talks about the cold, it talks about my journey from you know Dominican Republic and the the resilience that I had to display, even though I didn't understand what resiliency was back then. It's either in Amazon, you know, you could type my name or you could simply just type anchor and resilience. And then I'm in LinkedIn and it's just my name dash Ponciano, pretty dash Ponciano, and you can find me there. You know, I will tell you that that if you're want to look at read a book about a person that comes from nothing and has been able to give his all, it's it's a good read, you know, because you also see a lot of the craziness that I got myself into just being a sailor, and I'll leave it at that.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

That was like you've been interesting to just listen to in this you know hours worth of the podcast. So I'm probably gonna head over myself. And it is there an audiobook too?

SPEAKER_01 51:05

It is. There's also audiobooks. So if you click, you go to Amazon, it also gives you the choice for an audiobook as well.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

Even better. I love listening to stuff, hence why we have a podcast. Indeed. All of that information is gonna be in the show notes so you can connect. And for everyone that's listening, if this episode hits something for you, don't just sit on it. Make sure you're subscribed here so that you don't miss anything like these conversations that are coming next. Share this episode with someone that might also need to hear it, because the chances are you're not the only one that is questioning the cost of these sacrifices, because obviously there's two of us here that have done it as well. And then also consider supporting the show to keep these conversations real, raw, and independent. And you can do that through the links that are in the description show notes as well. So I appreciate you being here and thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for having me.